E52: Is it worth getting married? With Mike Donkor, Philippa Dolan and Jasper Martens

The following is a transcript of a bonus podcast episode of The Pension Confident Podcast. Listen to the episode or scroll to read the conversation.

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Takeaways from this episode

• Fewer couples are choosing to get married - fewer than half of all UK adults are married or in a civil partnership, while the number of cohabiting couples has increased by about 140% between 1996 and 2021.
• The ‘common law marriage’ myth - around 46% of people in the UK mistakenly believe common law marriage exists.
• Marriage still carries real tax advantages - assets, including property, can pass between spouses free of Inheritance Tax.
• Adults aren’t preparing for the worst - around 47% of people in the UK don’t have a will, leaving unmarried partners especially exposed.

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PHILIPPA LAMB: Hi! Will you marry me? It’s a question most people answer with their heart, not their head. But should they? For the first time ever, fewer than half of all UK adults are married or in a civil partnership. Cohabiting is a completely normal part of modern life. The problem is the law hasn’t kept pace with it, and the financial and legal gap between married and unmarried couples is way bigger than most people realise. So, the question we’re asking is: legally and financially, is it worth getting married?

With me today, another Philippa! Philippa Dolan, a Solicitor and Partner at Collyer Bristow. She’s also Co-Host of their legal podcast, LawTorn. Philippa has spent decades advising clients about prenups, divorce, and custody cases. Mike Donkor’s here with us too. He’s a former Stockbroker turned Financial Planner. He provides regulated advice to help individuals and couples simplify complex financial decisions around issues like Employee Share Schemes [and] Inheritance Tax (IHT). And from PensionBee this time, we’re joined by Chief Marketing Officer, Jasper Martens. He’s been with PensionBee since, what, almost the very beginning?

JASPER: The beginning, yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: And it’s not your first time on the podcast.

JASPER: It isn’t.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Welcome everyone.

MIKE: Welcome, welcome.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Thanks for coming in.

MIKE: Thanks for having us.

JASPER: Thank you.

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Why marriage rates are falling

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PHILIPPA LAMB: Now look, I’ve got a question for all of you. Assuming you find someone that you want to spend the rest of your life with, do you personally think marriage is the way to go? Philippa? 

PHILIPPA DOLAN: It’s hard to generalise. Sorry, I’m a lawyer.

PHILIPPA LAMB: She’s equivocating right out of the gate.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: I am, yes.

PHILIPPA LAMB: For you then?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: I got married to someone I’m still very friendly with. We had two children. We got divorced after a few years. I did the divorce. It was all fine.

PHILIPPA LAMB: DIY divorce.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: I totally trusted my then husband.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Did you marry again?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: I did marry again.

PHILIPPA LAMB: How did you two meet?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: He came to see me as a client, because he was getting divorced and we fell in love.

PHILIPPA LAMB: OK.

JASPER: Sounds like a rom-com.

MIKE: Sounds like an episode of Suits.

PHILIPPA LAMB: I don’t know if that’s romantic or not. But it’s handy -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: yeah, yeah -

PHILIPPA LAMB: wow -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: who I’ve been married to for many years.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Mike, how about you?

MIKE: I’ve been married about 11 years now.

PHILIPPA LAMB: And was it always going to be marriage?

MIKE: So yeah, I never really over-thought about it. It was just, “OK, we’re together, we’re gonna have kids, and then we’re gonna get married”. And that was the process with me. Yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: And that’s what happened.

MIKE: Yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: For the record, I’m married, second marriage, like Philippa. So, fair to say I’m quite positive about it myself. Which brings me to Jasper.

JASPER: Well, I’m not married myself, but I’ve been together with my partner for 18 years, so you can consider that to be quite a long-term engagement - 

PHILIPPA LAMB: yeah, long relationship -

JASPER: yes, long relationship, and I think I’ve never been too keen on it.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Tell me why.

JASPER: A couple of reasons. First of all, quite a lot of people around me got divorced, quite early on in the process. And second, I’m gay, and in not many countries marriage was an option on the table. And my age hopefully doesn’t show too much, but from the Netherlands it was always possible, where I’m from originally. But I’d say in other countries it wasn’t always an option. Here in the UK only, I don’t know when it was actually legalised or when it was possible.

PHILIPPA LAMB: I think that came in 2014.

JASPER: So, there were two reasons for it really. I see a lot of marriages fail.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Yeah.

JASPER: And I just want to keep it nice and clean if the time ever comes that me and my partner are no longer together. But we’ve been going for 18 years and we’re quite happy.

PHILIPPA LAMB: What you say is right. Not all marriages go well. Mike, marriage is declining anyway, isn’t it?

MIKE: Yeah. 42% of marriages end in divorce. Naturally, we’re seeing an increase of cohabitants in the UK as well. It’s about 3.5 million people. It’s increased by about 140% [from 1996 to 2021]. And we’re seeing a lot more kids being born from unmarried couples as well.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Philippa, there’s this term, isn’t there, that people throw around a lot, ‘common law marriage’.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yes.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So, is that a thing?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: No.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: absolutely not.

PHILIPPA LAMB: And it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been together?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Doesn’t matter. None of that counts. You can be together for 60 years.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Doesn’t matter if you’ve got kids? Doesn’t matter if you own property together?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: They make a difference, clearly, because you’ve got a claim if you’ve got property with someone and children are separate. Children do have claims, but they’re -

PHILIPPA LAMB: but if you’re not married, in any way -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: the children’s claims. They’re not the parents’ claims, and the parents have no rights.

PHILIPPA LAMB: I do wonder how many people actually know that.

MIKE: I don’t think a lot of people know. I think it’s quite low. In the UK, around 46% of people believe that common law marriages exist, and it doesn’t. So, people are cohabiting together and assuming that the government or the law is protecting them in one way, shape, or form when it actually isn’t.

PHILIPPA LAMB: That’s a big problem, isn’t it? We’ll get into the why of that in due course, but it’s fascinating to hear. Essentially, should we just nail down civil partnership as well, Philippa? Because obviously, not everyone marries, but people do have civil partnerships. Are your rights the same?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Exactly.

PHILIPPA LAMB: OK.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Absolutely the same.

PHILIPPA LAMB: But, Jasper, you haven’t done either?

JASPER: No, we haven’t done either. So, we’re together, we’re cohabiting, I’d say, and we’ll probably get later into it, but certain things that are common, like our house, we’ve got that sorted. You have to make sure that those things - what happens if we’re separating, or even one of us passes away? What happens to the house? I think you need to take care of those things. But there are other ways to do it rather than going into either a civil partnership or getting married.

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The financial perks of marriage

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PHILIPPA LAMB: OK, well, I don’t want to persuade you to [do] anything different, but I’m going to ask Mike -

MIKE: yeah -

PHILIPPA LAMB: to talk about actual financial benefits -

JASPER: yes -

PHILIPPA LAMB: of being married. Are there any?

MIKE: Well, yeah, there’s loads.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Go on then, tell us.

MIKE: There’s loads. Ultimately, I always say to clients when I’m speaking to them about this stuff, “What’s important for you, and the people that you care about, if you weren’t here?” And I think when you start to answer that question, then the question of marriage starts to become a bit more attractive in some circumstances.

The idea of marriage is essentially, I guess, from a legal, financial perspective, is more of an automatic framework of what could happen in the event of something later on. And that can save a lot of time, a lot of hassle, maybe a lot of cost as well. So, if I was to touch on one thing, for example, Inheritance Tax (IHT) - Jasper was talking about property - if you’re married and something [were] to happen to one of the spouses, your property could automatically be transferred to your surviving spouse -

PHILIPPA LAMB: without Inheritance Tax? -

MIKE: without Inheritance Tax.

PHILIPPA LAMB: That’s a key difference, isn’t it?

MIKE: It’s quite powerful.

PHILIPPA LAMB: That could be a lot of money.

MIKE: Yeah, definitely. If you think about London, the average house price is around £550,000, probably upwards of that. We start thinking about Inheritance Tax, those numbers can just keep going up and up and up without you even doing anything, just by sitting in the property.

PHILIPPA LAMB: It’s quite a compelling thought, isn’t it, Jasper?

JASPER: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Just got to lay that out there.

MIKE: Jasper’s intrigued!

JASPER: I think the Inheritance Tax isn’t something I would’ve thought about per se. For me, it was more about - and this sounds awful to say because we’re very happy together - but it was more from a point of view, I meant, what if we decide to move, split up? Like, what would happen? We just take each other’s share of the house. And that’s it really. But what if one [of you] passes away and if you’re not married or in a civil partnership, Inheritance Tax might be on the table versus not on the table. So, I think that’s definitely a consideration.

PHILIPPA LAMB: We’re going to talk more about what happens if someone unfortunately dies a bit later on, but are there other tax benefits we should be thinking about?

MIKE: Well, yeah, Capital Gains Tax (CGT).

PHILIPPA LAMB: Right. So how does that work? 

MIKE: So, if you’re an owner of property or shares, [or] some investment, you could effectively transfer some of those assets, or that equity, to your spouse at no Capital Gains Tax. I guess one of the key benefits there is you’re now in a position where it’s not just one allowance that you can maximise, because everyone has a Capital Gains [tax-free] allowance of £3,000 a year (2026/2027). So effectively you could split that share, provide it to your partner, and they can also use their allowance if they were to sell those shares as well.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Am I right, maybe there used to be something around Income Tax as well for married couples?

MIKE: So, if one of the spouses isn’t earning and the other one’s a basic taxpayer, then they could still transfer the Marriage Allowance, about £1,260 [of your Personal Allowance] (2026/2027), something along those lines.

PHILIPPA LAMB: OK, so there’s a marginal gain there. That’s worth thinking about.

MIKE: You can save [in tax up to £252] or so (2026/2027). Obviously [it’s] dependent on the circumstances, but there’s something there.

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When unmarried couples split

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PHILIPPA LAMB: It would be useful, Philippa, to talk about what happens to an unmarried couple’s finances when they split. If you’re just living together, cohabiting, no agreement, no nothing, what happens to all the stuff? However long you’ve been together, what happens to all the things you’ve built?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Well, it’s like two people living together, that’s all it is. They could be flatmates, so whoever owns what, they own it. And you might have an argument over the sofa if you went out and bought it together, but probably you own half each.

PHILIPPA LAMB: OK, so here’s a common scenario. It certainly was in the past, I think still is. Girlfriend moves into boyfriend’s flat or house. They end up staying together for years. She’s paying other bills, maybe he’s paying the mortgage, maybe she’s contributing, but it’s off the books. They’re sharing their household finances, but he still owns the house. So, they’re together 20 years. At the end, the house is his outright, is it?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: It really depends [on] what she’s been contributing.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Would she have to prove it?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: If he doesn’t agree, yes. The messiest of litigation.

JASPER: That’s very messy.

PHILIPPA LAMB: That’s the thing, isn’t it? In those relationships, you don’t keep notes, do you? You just pay bills.

MIKE: No one’s tracking who bought the vacuum, who paid for the cooker, unless you’ve got a spreadsheet like me, you know.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: So certainly, if the property’s the main asset, then if it’s in one person’s name, you’re a bit stuffed if you’re the other person. You can run arguments about, “Well, I did pay the mortgage, say”, which would give you some claim -

PHILIPPA LAMB: or some other household bill in lieu of the mortgage?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Depends on the bill, really. It needs to be tied to the house.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So, say you were paying utility bills, maybe you’re paying for a cleaner, would that do it?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: No.

MIKE: No.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Or the Council Tax?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: No, a cleaner wouldn’t do it.

PHILIPPA LAMB: No. So that’s really worth thinking about for people living in someone - in a property which isn’t in their name.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yeah, yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: A very significant issue. Does it matter if you have children together in that situation?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Completely different in that the children have claims. That - so the parent who’s the one who’s lost out on the deal, she (as it probably is) can make claims on behalf of the children - 

PHILIPPA LAMB: for maintenance? -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: for maintenance, but also for things like, “Oh, he’s great at the piano, I want him to go and spend three weeks in Germany this summer”. And if the money’s there in the relationship or in the - with the other person, then you can claim lump sums. You can also claim to stay in the house on behalf of the children until they’re adults, because of their accommodation needs. But it’s very complicated and not straightforward at all.

PHILIPPA LAMB: OK, so Jasper, have [you] and your partner talked about that sort of thing?

JASPER: Yeah, for me it was always explained. So, when we moved to London, he owned the apartment outright. He was basically my landlord. I think that’s probably the best way to describe it, and that’s how you need to see it. We sold that apartment two and a half years later and bought a property together. And then from that moment onwards, of course, things will have changed. I think it’s - you should never consider, even if you contribute like, how are you going to prove that? It’s going to be incredibly messy -

MIKE: really, really hard -

JASPER: and you just need to consider it like you’re paying your partner rent. Yeah, I think that’s the best way to describe it.

MIKE: You say that, but people aren’t always thinking about it from that perspective because, back in the day there used to be one breadwinner of the household. And if that person - maybe it was the man of the house that was “bringing in the bacon”, as they say, and the income - and maybe the wife was taking care of the children, then she may not -

PHILIPPA LAMB: or the girlfriend -

MIKE: or the girlfriend in this case - then she may not have all of the financials to feel like she’s contributing to justify the beneficial interest of the household, effectively.

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Avoiding the money conversation

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PHILIPPA LAMB: As we all know, if there’s kids, someone certainly initially is staying at home to look after them and maybe cutting down their work or not working altogether, possibly for very long periods of time. So, then you do get that financial inequality, and it is, yes, mostly even now still women, isn’t it? So, this is definitely something to think about. Do you often see, Mike, people with whom they’ve shared a home for years and they don’t have anything in writing?

MIKE: Yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: You do?

MIKE: Yeah. It happens a lot.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Wow.

MIKE: Even if you think about wills in general, I think about 47% of people don’t have wills, still.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Yeah.

JASPER: It all comes down to it’s one of those things that a lot of people just don’t understand well.

MIKE: Yeah.

JASPER: And they’re putting it off.

MIKE: Yes.

JASPER: And time goes really fast and it’s the same with other financial things. And being a marketeer in pensions, I can feel the pain, because it’s one of those things you’ll put off.

MIKE: Yeah.

JASPER: You do that on a Sunday afternoon when it’s raining. “Let’s just look at that will. Let’s look at our situation. Let’s have that conversation”. But you’ll be watching Netflix instead, I think. And that’s the problem. That you need to fight that inertia kicking in and take control and talk to you (Mike) and you (Philippa) about what are my circumstances like? Because time flies.

PHILIPPA LAMB: And with marriage, of course, we’re here we’re talking about legalities and money. This is a romantic relationship. There’s trust there, right? So, Philippa, tell me, but I’m guessing that that’s the thing that stops otherwise perfectly rational people thinking about this in a way that they might otherwise do - if it was a business relationship, for example.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: You mean they don’t want to suggest that there may come a time when the other person’s going to behave badly?

PHILIPPA LAMB: Yeah, well, it doesn’t occur to them, they’re in love. We’ve all been there.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Jasper, you were saying you didn’t want things to go wrong if you split up from your partner, but of course it doesn’t have to go wrong.

JASPER: Yeah.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: For a lot of people, they’re really decent.

JASPER: Yeah.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: And they’re fair. And actually, whether you’re married or unmarried, we tend to know about the minority of people who behave badly for whatever reason - rage, jealousy, mental health, whatever it is. But a lot of people don’t behave badly. So, the benefits, I suppose, of getting married, other than the fact that I think it’s a lovely romantic gesture, it’s going to be tax isn’t it really?

MIKE: Yeah, it’s going to be tax. Jasper, you mentioned it earlier, a lot of people just don’t know. A lot of people are not looking into this. A lot of people are delaying [their] actions. It’s very easy to just kick the can down the road.

JASPER: You talked about marriage being almost like a template.

MIKE: Yeah.

JASPER: If you get married, you get a set of circumstances and rule sets. Even if you’re not very much in the know, it gives you a framework, safety net.

MIKE: Yeah.

JASPER: But I still believe that beyond that framework or the template -

MIKE: yes -

JASPER: you’ve got to switch your mind on when it comes to these things. Sometimes marriage might not be adequate if there’s wealth involved on both sides, for example. So, I do think people need to keep thinking and don’t rely on it too much.

PHILIPPA LAMB: And also, it’s that nice feeling you get, and I really, this is what drives me to get financial stuff done. It feels so good when you’ve done it.

MIKE: Yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Doesn’t it? It feels so, “OK, job done”.

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How pensions are shared

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PHILIPPA LAMB: I want to ask about pensions because we’ve talked about property, we’ve talked about kids. Pensions are often a huge asset in a relationship, aren’t they?

JASPER: Yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: And if the relationship ends, how the pensions are divided. Do you have any arrangement?

JASPER: Yes, we do.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Impressive.

JASPER: And he’s not getting everything, and I’m not getting anything from his side either -

PHILIPPA LAMB: OK -

JASPER: If one of us passes away, we’ve looked at our retirement planning. I work for a pension firm -

PHILIPPA LAMB: of course -

JASPER: If I [hadn’t] have done that, then it would’ve been a huge scandal. Yeah. So, we’ve looked at our retirement planning, so we know our number, and it means that in my circumstances, some of it’ll go to my nephews, going past my sister, but to the nephews -

PHILIPPA LAMB: that’s for another podcast -

MIKE: we’ll talk about it later -

JASPER: that’s for another podcast -

MIKE: we’ll talk about it later -

JASPER: no, no, no -

MIKE: what did she do?

JASPER: We talked about it and we talked about it. For me, the most important thing was if anything happened to us, “Can I stay in my house? Can he stay in the house?”. Second is, are you financially - [have] you got your number to sustain yourself well and comfortably until the end of your life? The answer is yes. Then other than the romantic reasons, we couldn’t come up with reasons to get married.

PHILIPPA LAMB: I want to ask Philippa about this though, because pensions, as I’ve said, it’s often a huge asset in a relationship. And much like paying a mortgage, paying into a pension can be leveraged and enabled by another partner paying for other stuff. So, it’s not quite as simple as, “Yeah, well, I paid into it, so it’s mine”. If you’re unmarried and you split up, what happens if there’s a big pension pot in the relationship?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: You have no claim.

PHILIPPA LAMB: You’ve got no claim on it.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: You have no claim. And also, if it’s a pension that’s not a private pension, but it’s a -

PHILIPPA LAMB: a workplace pension -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: I think they’ve changed the rules to some extent for unmarried couples. There were cases in the last few years, but as a general rule, you’ll just lose the pension completely.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Really?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So, Philippa, you can put arrangements, legal arrangements, in place in advance of all this, can’t you, against that possibility happening?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Pension Sharing Order (PSO), you can, but only if you’re getting divorced and that’s something the court has to approve.

PHILIPPA LAMB: You can’t have that if you’re not married in the first place?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: No. 

MIKE: OK, that’s on the other side.

PHILIPPA LAMB: That’s another point well worth thinking about, particularly I’d say for later life couples or high income couples who’ve got these pension pots can be very substantial. That’s a big asset to walk away from.

JASPER: And I think it’s a really important thing to bear in mind, especially if one partner has a much smaller pension than the other, then I think it becomes a really unfair situation if the person that passes away or you’re getting a divorce has the bigger pot, then the other is literally left with nothing. And we see that quite often at PensionBee.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: But if you’re getting divorced, you’ll have an equality, probably, what the pensions are worth. So, it’s a reason for getting married, a financial reason.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So, I think what we’re saying here is this is something that definitely needs thinking about. Married, unmarried, whatever. If you’re in a relationship, there are pensions involved, have a think about that. It’s not unromantic, it’s just rational.

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Who gets the pets?

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PHILIPPA LAMB: Talking of sharing assets, and it’s very different to pensions, but I want to ask about pets. Because…

MIKE: I was thinking about that.

JASPER: Don’t split those in half.

PHILIPPA LAMB: This is a thing, isn’t it, that’s cropping up in legal disputes quite a lot at the moment. Is there, Philippa, firstly, a difference if you’re married or unmarried on the ownership of your communal pets?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: No, but I can say there’s no difference if you’re married or unmarried.

PHILIPPA LAMB: OK.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: And they’re still, I think, treated as ‘chattel’, so they’re still treated as objects.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So how do the pets -

JASPER: Like a sofa.

PHILIPPA LAMB: How do they get divvied up?

MIKE: You put the pet in the middle, and the parents stand on both sides, and you wait to see which -

JASPER: So, you literally have to have a bickering around who’s getting the sofa, who’s getting the dog.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yeah, and obviously if you’re a vengeful, angry person and you know the other person really loves the dog -

PHILIPPA LAMB: wants the dog -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: then it’s quite a good weapon to employ.

JASPER: Wow.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Have you seen people go to court for their -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yes, they do. Yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: And how does the court decide who the dog should go to?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: I think it’s complicated. It’s not really a - it’s not a family case, it’s a civil case. But I think that the judge will use their common sense, look at the people in front of them, work out who paid for the dog, who pays for the vet bills, who takes them for walks the most, who’s at home with them the most -

PHILIPPA LAMB: well, these things are worth thinking about. I’m wondering whether there shouldn’t be some arrangements -

MIKE: keep your receipts -

PHILIPPA LAMB: put in place -

JASPER: keep the receipts -

PHILIPPA LAMB: Can you have shared custody of your pet?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yes, you can have shared, but I don’t - I haven’t seen it written into an order, but certainly a lot of people do have shared arrangements.

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Protecting your partner with a will

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PHILIPPA LAMB: So now we have talked about this sad situation where one partner dies and protecting yourself in that situation, because as you said Mike, I think it’s not even half of adults in this country have a will now. So, there are big implications there. But I’m wondering, Philippa, if setting aside the question of married, not married, does a will - obviously this doesn’t cope with the end of a relationship if you decide to split, but if you stay together, someone dies, and you have wills, are you covered whether you’re married or you’re not?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yes, yes, not for tax, but certainly for who you’re leaving your estate to. Yes, it’d be a very sensible thing to do if you didn’t want to get married, but you love the person you live with and you wouldn’t want to see them on the streets if you died. Certainly, you should make them a beneficiary of your will.

PHILIPPA LAMB: But Mike, I’m guessing, lots of people you deal with don’t do that. And tax-wise, as you’ve said, it’s not as advantageous, right?

MIKE: If you’re not married. Yeah, definitely. I think you have to be very careful about the consequences of that. And this is where the planning comes into place because it’s only at that point that people start to really identify what’s important to them and what they actually want to hold onto. A lot of the time I’m speaking to people about property being passed on to their siblings, spouses from a previous relationship, stuff like that, and having to find out at the end that it’s not what they originally thought it was going to be, because they haven’t put those structures in place.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Philippa, if you hadn’t got married and you just decided you were going to cohabit with your partner, what legal arrangements would you have put in place to do that?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: None, I imagine.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Really? You’re a lawyer!

PHILIPPA DOLAN: I know. It’s a cobbler’s shoes, isn’t it? I haven’t got a pension. I’m the worst person.

MIKE: We’re going to have a chat, Philippa.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right. Everyone’s shocked, very, very shocked.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: But I probably wouldn’t. obviously, what you should do is make sure that they’re on the title, investigate pensions. Anything else, any other property you’ve got -

PHILIPPA LAMB: pets? -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: yeah.

JASPER: I think if you decide not to get married and you live together for a long time, I think for me, I always compare it to - it’s almost like a self-invested relationship instead of a Self-Invested Personal Pension (SIPP). Like it’s a ‘do-it-yourself’ arrangement. You really have to think about the details, like, “OK, so what do we do with the house? What do we do with the pensions?”. Like you’ve just mentioned, you’ve got to do the work though. If you’re not doing anything, you see many of those as your clients, you’ll be left in tears.

MIKE: Yeah.

JASPER: So, you’ll have to do the work. I think the argument for marriage, if you - aside from the romantic side of things, is it does give you that template, so things will get sorted. But if you’re not getting married, it’s like it’s a self-invested relationship.

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Cohabitation Agreements and annual reviews

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PHILIPPA LAMB: Can you have a prenup if you’re not married? A version of a prenup as it were.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Well, yes, you can. You can have a Cohabitation Agreement.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So, is that what people should be doing then?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: The property and the pensions are probably the main issues, but some people do, and you can put all sorts of things in them.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Lay out proper rational -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yeah, who’s going to take out - who gets what, the rubbish, who’s going to take the dog for a walk whenever, who’s going to - you can put it in agreement. It probably does help. Personally, I couldn’t be arsed, but it probably would help if you had -

PHILIPPA LAMB: do you really want to use that phrase? -

MIKE: that’s exactly the problem -

JASPER: “I couldn’t be arsed” -

MIKE: “I couldn’t be arsed”. For most people.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: But maybe I can imagine, I know some people who probably would benefit from that, and they’d stick to the rules, and it’d make their relationship more relaxed.

PHILIPPA LAMB: But Jasper, you don’t have one of those, Jasper.

JASPER: No, we don’t. And I think the only thing I’d say is what we do on an annual basis, we made the agreement on an annual basis to just revisit some of the things we said we were going to do. I couldn’t - we bought the house in 2012. Give you an example. I’ve been building up my pension since I moved to London in 2009. Guess what? My nephews were born and they’re six and 11. So guess what? You got to, “Where does the money go when I pass away?”. You got to change. You got to tweak. Maybe not every year but make it a habit every year. Use that rainy Sunday afternoon and actually look at it again. Because if you’re not getting married, you’ve set up the rules yourself. So, you also make sure that you have to stick to those rules or you have to make changes.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So, do you do that with your partner?

JASPER: Every year we’ll have a conversation - “OK, what do you think?”. 

PHILIPPA LAMB: You do?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Is he equally keen?

JASPER: Yeah.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Is one of you more proactive than the other?

JASPER: He was always more keen than I was. But I’ve been on a journey. And I’ve seen the light. I think it’s really important that you love each other, so you also look after each other.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Yeah.

JASPER: And therefore, review it on a regular basis because things can change. Over time our incomes will have changed. We look at each other’s wealth. It’s like, “What does everybody - and are you OK? Are you comfortable?”. These -

PHILIPPA LAMB: who’s paying for what? -

JASPER: yeah. And this isn’t about - this isn’t romantic - this isn’t killing any romantic relationship. These are reasonable questions you need to ask yourself.

MIKE: I think the problem is people focus too much on the actual paperwork and not the intentions behind it.

JASPER: Yeah.

MIKE: What’s important to you? A financial plan isn’t a piece of paper, it’s an evolving plan. So, as your situation changes, so should your plan. I think sometimes people are worried too much [about] the contractual agreement as opposed to if somebody was to pass away, “What does that actually look like for your kids? What does that look like for your partner?”.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Or even just the relationship comes to an end.

JASPER: Yeah.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Because that’s what, that’s what thankfully normally happens in relationship breakup. It’s before, it’s earlier in life and people just go their separate ways. But you still got all this stuff to untangle, haven’t you? And Philippa and I know, both know about this from having gone through divorce. It’s complicated and we were married. If we hadn’t been, it would’ve been more complicated, wouldn’t it?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Yes, I think that’s right. It’s more to talk about anyway.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Yeah, because I think we do hesitate. I think it feels unromantic. Maybe it feels a bit confronting, as you say. Maybe the guy’s not going to feel so great about you raising it. Maybe it’ll feel like an accusation. And all these things play into you don’t have the conversation. And if you’re unmarried -

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Your idea is a really good one, Jasper’s idea - 

PHILIPPA LAMB: the annual chat - 

PHILIPPA DOLAN: about having an annual chat, because [of] the trouble with talking about those issues out of the blue, it’s going to raise suspicions, never mind anything else.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Why is she asking? Yeah, why is he asking?

JASPER: It’s in our calendar.

MIKE: Like an annual review?

JASPER: Yeah, in December.

MIKE: With the Financial Advisor.

JASPER: I think it sounds very unromantic. It sounds almost like a business meeting. But I think if you’re living together without any arrangements in place, I think that’s the least you should expect, without raising any suspicions. But it’s like, “Has anything changed?”. I think that should be [a] staple in anybody’s cohabiting relationship.

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A fairer end to relationships

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PHILIPPA LAMB: I should say, Philippa, this is a particularly key time for us to be talking about this, because there’s been a consultation, hasn’t there, about how to end relationships in a fairer way [legally]. Tell us a bit about that.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Well, it’s quite a bit of a mishmash, actually, because they put together cohabitation rights, which I think everyone, or nearly everyone, agrees is a good idea. They’ve also raised the idea that prenups and - prenuptial agreements and postnuptial agreements, called Qualifying Nuptial Agreements, are going to be - at the moment it’s quite discretionary - I say that, [but] if you tick certain boxes, chances are that the court will uphold the agreement, right? But the judge retains discretion even still.

So, I think the idea is they’re going to be set in stone so that if you again tick the boxes, then your prenup or post-nup will be recognised and upheld. And there’s also stuff about - the other one was having more codification of the financial rules, insofar as there are rules, governing divorce so that there’ll be more certainty because we have, in this country, we’re very - it’s a bit of a gamble quite often if you’re getting divorced. It’s not clear in the way that lots of countries have a more codified approach.

PHILIPPA LAMB: So, the plan is more clarity, more certainty around money in relationships. This is married or unmarried?

PHILIPPA DOLAN: This is both, actually. 

PHILIPPA LAMB: Really helpful.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: It’s to cover everything, and it sort of falls in and out of domestic abuse, but I’m not entirely sure why. And the one thing it doesn’t mention is how can you afford legal advice. And of course, because Legal Aid’s disappeared almost entirely, people can’t get legal advice any longer if they don’t have the money.

PHILIPPA LAMB: That’s a point well made -

MIKE: that’s a very good point -

PHILIPPA LAMB: if you end up legally wrangling with your partner who you’re not married to, the person with the deepest pockets is probably going to come out on top.

PHILIPPA DOLAN: Oh absolutely.

JASPER: Absolutely.

PHILIPPA LAMB: Yeah. Another thing to think about.

MIKE: Another reason to get married!

PHILIPPA LAMB: This is why we have this podcast, to chew over the pros and cons.

JASPER: Well, you’ve heard it here first.

MIKE: You’ve heard it here first.

PHILIPPA LAMB: I think it’s been very interesting. Thank you all very much indeed.

JASPER: Been a pleasure.

MIKE: Yes, it’s been great.

PHILIPPA LAMB: We’ll be taking a short break in August, but we’ll be releasing a special bonus episode with our Series Producer, Lucy Greenwell, looking back on the best bits from our Series 5 so far. Just a reminder, anything discussed on the podcast shouldn’t be regarded as financial advice or as legal advice, and when investing, your capital is at risk. Thanks for being with us. We’ll see you next time.

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Risk warning

As always with investments, your capital is at risk. The value of your investment can go down as well as up, and you may get back less than you invest. This information should not be regarded as financial advice.